14.9.04
Issue: Iraq war
Couple of months ago I used to comment regularly on Alhamadi's blog(www.muttawa.blogspot.com). I am really pleased the way different discussions went on the comment section. On Alhamadi’s Friday, May 21, 2004’s post I had arguments with some nice guys who can comment in a very beautiful way. Here is how it went…
comments.
Do anyone in this world will ever believe that a country would spend billions of dollars and have thousands of it's soldier killed to liberate another country that has no similiarity with religion, culture and anything???
No matter how many westerners say that US and UK are liberating Iraq, the truth is they have gone there to steal the oil from Iraq. But for some terrorist Iraqies they are not
becoming successful.
zahir 05.24.04 - 9:43 am #
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"the truth is they have gone there to steal the oil from Iraq"
zahir. Are you SURE that that is the truth? Positive? Without a doubt? Care to guess how many Iraqis are recieving paychecks from Oil revenues? Thinking, zahir, will put your people on the moon. It will invent things, like computers. It will cure diseases. You should concentrate on thinking more. It is much more helpful for all of us.
Scott from Oregon Email 05.24.04 - 10:41 am #
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Zahir, if we went to Iraq to steal their oil we've done a pretty bad job of getting it. Have you checked prices lately? You know, that supply and demand thing?
Alhamedi, your entry today makes me want to laugh and cry at the same time. Laugh becuase your writing is so excellent, and cry because of what you say. Your work is precious. Keep up the good work.
Tom the Redhunter Email Homepage 05.24.04 - 5:10 pm #
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Zahir,
Your views on Americans plotting to steal oil just won't fly. It wasn't the U.S. that invaded Kuwait in the early 90's to seize their oil. The U.S. intervened to prevent that. It was not the U.S. that made a mockery of the oil-for-food program in Iraq. Is it just a coincidence that the current gas price issue is upon on just in time to influence the American presidential election? Who's trying to manipulate who? If some people want to indulge in conspiracy theories over oil supplies, then add this one to the list.
Dave Anthony Email 05.25.04 - 7:58 am #
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Ummm... Zahir....
"Do anyone in this world will ever believe that a country would spend billions of dollars... ...to steal the oil from Iraq"
You don't see the logic problem there, do you?
Ben Email 05.26.04 - 3:47 pm #
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Mr. Dave
You are saying that US actually helped Kuwait in the gulf war right?
But you don't know who created that war. The gulf war would have never happened if USA didn't work behind it from the beginning.
To have the complete domination in the Arab, USA plotted that war like many other wars in the past. Now let me tell you how it worked.
Zahir Email 05.27.04 - 10:51 am #
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After destroying a rapidly developing country, Iran by helping Iraq in every posible way USA actaully made sure that no Arab nation advances. Then Before the gulf war US gave Saddam the green signal to go for the war with kuwait by telling Saddam that US will never interfere with the internal matters of the Arab nations and on the other hand it promised Kuwait total support against Iraq. Now you said, "It wasn't the U.S. that invaded Kuwait in the early 90's to seize their oil". well, you are right in this case cause by saving Kuwait from Iraq US managed to have complete controle over the Kuwaiti oil feilds. And at the same time they got access to enter other Arab nations.
zahir 05.27.04 - 10:52 am #
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Even Saudies can't enter a big area of Dammam which US manage to occupy through this process.
actually, saddam was helping US all through his life by his foolish acts. but that fool never realized that.
Listen to the cassette "From the Shadow" Part 1 of Abdul Karim which u will get anywhere in USA and UK.
And don't say that US have invaded Iraq to help the Iraqies to live better, ppl will laugh at you. Nobody does anything without profit. And US is doing it for OIL only.
Visit www.whatreallyhappened.com
you will be able to know some truth there.
zahir 05.27.04 - 10:59 am #
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I would like all of you to read the following article. Please read it.
Please......
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ARTICLE5/
zahir 05.27.04 - 11:34 am #
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Posted by Zahir:
"Nobody does anything without profit. And US is doing it for OIL only. "
Then why am I paying $2.10 dollars per gallon to fill up my Mazda you fucking panzy?!!
What an idiot. Conspiracy theories like this have a place - UP YOUR ASS Zahir.
And you know what? Even IF the US was doing it for the oil, then God bless them, because them coming after oil is a hundred times better than Saddam coming after your mom.
Idiota.
Magnus Maximus Email 05.27.04 - 2:26 pm #
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"Is terrorism inside the United States really from outside, or is it a stage managed production, designed to cause Americans to believe they have no choice but to surrender the Republic and accept the totalitarian rule of a new emperor, or a new Fuhrer? "
ZAHIR-- You forgot the THINKING part again!!! That was the second dumbest thing I have ever read. Think, man, think!!
Scott from Oregon Email 05.27.04 - 3:35 pm #
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Well...It's nice to know I am not the only one loosing sleep, either!
Zahir...
1) Helped Saddam against Iran because fanatical Islamist took over our embassy in 79 and held our people hostage for 444 days.
...We have just as long memories as the Islamists do.
2) Did not go to all out war with Iran because ARab world was worried it would cause turmoil in area and would spill over to them
Kat-Missouri/USA Email 05.27.04 - 10:41 pm #
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3) Arab world put serious pressure on the US not to do anything. Please note the oil shortages in 1979. (US history; I'm sure you can look that up)
4) Arab world does not care if they kill each other. Thought Saddam was a good way to keep Islamist from spilling over into their countries from Iran. They were not interested in the holy revolution.
5) Most weapons Saddam used were supplied by Russia and France (please see pictures of tanks and other weapons from the fall of Baghdad).
Kat-Missouri/USA Email 05.27.04 - 10:46 pm #
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6) through what countries do you think the weapons were delivered? Iraq does not share a border with US (please see a map of the world)
7) Comment on Bush 1 stating we would not interfere in with "internal matters of Arab nations" did not mean if one country invaded another. Simply meant that we were not interested, at that time, in removing him from his teetering totalitarianthrone. People want to change that to "green light to invade Kuwait" is their problem.
Kat-Missouri/USA Email 05.27.04 - 10:52 pm #
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-Are you implying that Bush 1 was brilliant and could fool anyone into doing what he wanted or are you implying that the Arab world in general are idiots (which I don't buy) and coulnd't see he was tricking them into letting him in?
9) Kuwait, Saudi, Oman, etc ASKED for our help because they knew when Saddam took over Kuwait they would be next and they could not rely on people like you to protect their countries.
10) Even though the leaders of ARab countries don't have much to say about it now, I am pretty sure they knew that SAddam was crazy and were severely afraid for themselves. Better to ask the US to come in help, then hope that their "muslim brothers" would come to their aid.
Kat-Missouri/USA Email 05.27.04 - 10:58 pm #
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11) Saudis, et al did not take Bin Laden's assistance of mujahideen because they knew when it was over they would have an armed militia inside their borders fomenting revolution. (For progressive, developing countries developed by bin Laden and taliban, please see Afghanistan) Of course, you would probably have liked that. I get the impression that Almehdi would have disagreed.
12) America did not invade Iraq to make Iraqis free. (darn it, I knew somebody would figure this out). US invaded Iraq because Iraq was conspiring with terrorist Al-qaida (see 9/11: why we don't like Al-qaida).
Kat-Missouri/USA Email 05.27.04 - 11:06 pm #
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13) We know this because Iraqi intelligence met with Al-qaida before 9/11 and let in al-zarqawi for "medical treatment". (somehow I don't think this was altruistic intent either)
14) Al-qaida thought Saddam would make a good partner for short term (the enemy of my enemy is my friend) But, probably would have turned on him the second they got what they wanted. Saddam is lucky we captured him. Al-qaida would have summarily chopped off his head.
Kat-Missouri/USA Email 05.27.04 - 11:13 pm #
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15) Again, Saudi, Kuwait, Oman, etc agreed to let US in because they knew Saddam + Al Qaida = big trouble for future of Arab world. Almehdi might have problems now, but at least the Talibani are not looking for him with a grenade.
16) Iraq invaded and Saddam overthrown because he was a threat to our security and, frankly, yours. If Saddam and Al-Qaida had their way, you would not be on this blog to speak so ill of what you know nothing about.
17) Free Iraqi people and oil flowing freely that is not part of OPEC is a side benefit.
1 Iraqi oil revenues are in the hands of the Iraqi IGC. 10 Billion US dollars. Please explain how oil is being "stolen" from Iraq.
Kat-Missouri/USA Email 05.27.04 - 11:27 pm #
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19) US gave Iraq 15 billion US dollars in non repayable (free) loans. NO Iraqi has to pay it back. Please explain how we are stealing from Iraqi people?
20) Iraqi oil revenues in the hands of Al-qaida/Taliban government would be the end of the Arab world. Thousands of non-sunni/wahabi practicing muslims would be dead even now. Almehdi would be telling us even worse stories if he could even actually get on the internet or was not one of the dead "heretics".
Zahir would probably enjoy rule by Taliban. Probably get a high up position like minister of propaganda...oops...information.
Please explain how you think you know US invaded Iraq for oil? Did the TV tell you?
Kat-Missouri/USA Email 05.27.04 - 11:29 pm #
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Dear friends
I can c that many of u have severely criticised my comments. I actually knew that u ppl will react like this because the truth is so much against your perception that it is very difficult for you to digest them. Someone even said that I'd probably like the rule of Taliban. I think he didn't mean it. But I actually would like the ruleship of Taliban. Like I said before you ppl don't know the truth. u think that whatever u learn from CNN and BBC is true. But USA and UK use CNN and BBA to promote their propaganda. let me make it clear pls.
Zahir Email 05.28.04 - 6:39 am #
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read this interview with Yvonne Ridley, a British jounalist who was captured by the Taliban and later released. GO to
http://thedailystar.net/magazine/2004/04/04/interview.htm
Dear frieds don't stick to your beliefs. Let some light come in to your heads.
Zahir 05.28.04 - 6:45 am #
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Forget what you have leart from CNN, BBC ect. Try to know how and why Taliban was formed. And try to know the character of Molla Mohammad Omar. And other leaders of Taliban. I hope you ppl will also begin to love Taliban like Ridley and me. Don't hate Taliban for one or two souldiers. And keep it in your mind that the truth is not what we get from the newspapers.
READ the articles of www.whatreallyhappened.com more carefully.
I will give more links to u ppl for better understanding "the truth".
Zahir Email 05.28.04 - 6:51 am #
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Kat: I'd bet money you didn't know you would be THAT right about Zahir. I think he already HAS that Minister of Propaganda position.
insomni Email 05.28.04 - 7:55 am #
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Mr. Magnus Maximus
you used some slangs that i'm not used to hear. But i didn't mind it at all cause i know its your nature to use abusive words without providing a little evidence.
I agree that Saddam was not good as a leader of Iraq but surely he was better than US. go to the following site if u what to know what kind of liberation US is giving to the Iraqis. And Mr. Magnus will also know who the actual rapist is.
http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0421/mondo2.php
Zahir Email 05.28.04 - 8:00 am #
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Just as corruption can be found at all levels of government in the USA and elsewhere, so also there are corrupt individuals in government in SA. Problems caused by individuals within each system must be distinguished from the problems of each system, however.
Just as the Western legal system, including trial by jury, has evolved with the influence of diverse social influences over hundreds of years, so also law in the Muslim world has evolved, under impact by various influences, over a similar period of time.
Continued...
SF Email Homepage 05.28.04 - 9:37 am #
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Some people idealize "freedom" and individual liberty, while others believe that social order and stability are a higher priority in their lives.
The jury system is not without flaws. With its emphasis on personal freedom and 'evidence', the Western system sometimes allows criminals to go free. Innocent people have been incarcerated after jury trials, and executed. A judge's discretion is sometimes the better protection for the innocent.
Dealing with specific details makes for a clearer discussion than throwing out broad generalizations, but adapting some aspects of the SA (or Islamic) legal system to practices that better serve society rather than
condemning it in totality might be a better choice
SF Email Homepage 05.28.04 - 9:38 am #
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SF: You are smoking some bad weed if you can put the US and Saudi legal systems side-by-side and say that while both have their flaws, one is not necessarily better than the other. Do you work for arabnews.com, because this sounds like the drivel they put out.
Zahir: CNN offers pro-war propaganda? Oh, that's good. I'll have to save that comment for a laugh the next time I'm upset about the US media's relentless assault on the US military.
insomni Email 05.28.04 - 11:46 am #
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SF: You are smoking some bad weed if you can put the US and Saudi legal systems side-by-side and say that while both have their flaws, one is not necessarily better than the other. Do you work for arabnews.com, because this sounds like the drivel they put out.
Zahir: CNN offers pro-war propaganda? Oh, that's good. I'll have to save that comment for a laugh the next time I'm upset about the US media's relentless assault on the US military.
insomni Email 05.28.04 - 11:49 am #
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SF: You are smoking some bad weed if you can put the US and Saudi legal systems side-by-side and say that while both have their flaws, one is not necessarily better than the other. Do you work for arabnews.com, because this sounds like the drivel they put out.
Zahir: CNN offers pro-war propaganda? Oh, that's good. I'll have to save that comment for a laugh the next time I'm upset about the US media's relentless assault on the US military.
insomni Email 05.28.04 - 11:56 am #
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SF: You are smoking some bad weed if you can put the US and Saudi legal systems side-by-side and say that while both have their flaws, one is not necessarily better than the other. Do you work for arabnews.com, because this sounds like the drivel they put out.
Zahir: CNN offers pro-war propaganda? Oh, that's good. I'll have to save that comment for a laugh the next time I'm upset about the US media's relentless assault on the US military.
insomni Email 05.28.04 - 12:07 pm #
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SF: You are smoking some bad weed if you can put the US and Saudi legal systems side-by-side and say that while both have their flaws, one is not necessarily better than the other. Do you work for arabnews.com, because this sounds like the drivel they put out.
Zahir: CNN offers pro-war propaganda? Oh, that's good. I'll have to save that comment for a laugh the next time I'm upset about the US media's relentless assault on the US military.
insomni Email 05.28.04 - 12:42 pm #
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http://redhunter.blogspot.com/
Mary Martini Email 05.28.04 - 12:54 pm #
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SF: You are smoking some bad weed if you can put the US and Saudi legal systems side-by-side and say that while both have their flaws, one is not necessarily better than the other. Do you work for arabnews.com, because this sounds like the drivel they put out.
Zahir: CNN offers pro-war propaganda? Oh, that's good. I'll have to save that comment for a laugh the next time I'm upset about the US media's relentless assault on the US military.
insomni Email 05.28.04 - 12:57 pm #
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Queer Sheik: The Strange Emergence of Gay and Lesbian Culture in Saudi Arabia (The New Republic)
http://www.johnrbradley.com/recart_02.html?pt=F4bD483qZPViqE1CyQTDkh==
John R Bradley Homepage 05.28.04 - 1:14 pm #
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SF: You are smoking some bad weed if you can put the US and Saudi legal systems side-by-side and say that while both have their flaws, one is not necessarily better than the other. Do you work for arabnews.com, because this sounds like the drivel they put out.
Zahir: CNN offers pro-war propaganda? Oh, that's good. I'll have to save that comment for a laugh the next time I'm upset about the US media's relentless assault on the US military.
insomni Email 05.28.04 - 1:41 pm #
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Oh, CRAP! My apologies to all... I was hitting refresh on this window to see when new comments came in. Mine was always on the bottom, so I figured that nobody else had commented. It wasn't until just now that I realized that every refresh was resubmitting my last comment! Feeling foolish. Sorry about that. It's no excuse, but this is the first time I've seen a blog commenting system that works like that.
insomni Email 05.28.04 - 1:44 pm #
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I am an Orthodox Jew (I'm sure Zahir has already formed lots of opinions about me). There is another reason why Bush deposed Saddam. It was a matter of family honor. Bush Sr. advised the Shiites to rebel and then, on the advice of the State Department, didn't help out. Many died due to our neglegence. Bush Jr., and the USA, needed to repair that breach of trust.
Joseph from Oregon Email 05.28.04 - 2:40 pm #
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Zahir, like so many conspiracy theorists, thinks the US (and the Jews for that matter) are what the Arab world has always dreamed of being - united in belief, purpose and action. Fact is, sorry to break it to you Zahir, that we have disagreements and arguments and fundamental fault lines like anybody else. We (the West) succeed where you fail because we have developed a society that builds on disagreement and conflict rather than a society like that in the Arab world which will not allow disagreement or criticism and thus fails to develop at all. Individual liberty, SF and Zahir, leads to constructive conflict instead of destructive repression.
Joseph, Portland OR Email 05.28.04 - 2:46 pm #
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Zahir: "Forget what you have leart from CNN, BBC ect."
This one had me rolling on the floor laughing! I haven't paid attention to either CNN OR BBC since the Gulf War of 1990-1991!!!!!!! ROFL! Those are the channels those who OPPOSE the Iraq War watch! LOL!!!!
Further, that article in the Village Voice says, "There is one photo of an American soldier having sex with an Iraqi woman."
They're a little behind the times. Word has gotten out that the woman in the picture is Lynddie England, she of the leash, not an Iraqi. There are no "rape" photos that are real.
Theresa, Florida 05.31.04 - 12:49 am #
Few days later I received a letter from Mr. Dave.
Letter from Dave
I've had to be off-line a couple of days because of work, but I did want to send an answer to you. I've just finished reading some of the discussion that followed our messages. I wanted to answer you this way rather than on the message board because some of the responses were profane and I don't care to be involved in discussions with such people participating.
Propaganda is a fine art. It takes facts and bends them to fit the needs of whoever is using them. I'll grant that the U.S. and the U.S. media indulge in it. It may surprise you to learn that a lot of Americans don't trust the word of our media or our government. Neither one of them certainly speaks for me.
I'm a Christian and we have a belief in orginal sin which is the idea that no one is without sin. We are all imperfect. I don' thave any illusions about my government or media. My question to you is -- are you as skeptical of the sources from which you get your news? They have their own agendas. They manipulate facts to fit what they want you to know just as our media tries to do with us.
The problem for you and me is how do we know what is true? We are both being manipulated, so we are left with this gulf between us that is filled with lies, half-truths and false impressions... Have you ever read George Orwell's book 1984? If you do, then that book explains better than I can how and why this happens.
Zahir, if you are an honest and honorable person, then you need to seek answers that don't demonize whole nations or groups of people. I seek to learn more about people in your part of the world by reading these blog sites. I have had wonderful, constructive conversations and had many mistaken impressions proven wrong. We (not just you and me) need to learn more about each other and stop being duped by this 'us versus them' mentality that we are being fed in the media & by governments.
The Truth lies somewhere in the middle between what you are told and what I am told. We need to seek that and build on that. Otherwise, matters will go from bad to worse.
Has my country always acted honorably? No. Did and does the U.S. make mistakes or bad judgments? Yes. Does all this mean we are involved in an evil conspiracy to monopolize world oil supplies and oppress Muslims? No. As imperfect as our efforts may have been, my countrymen have been trying to do the right thing for people in Kuwait and Iraq. Have you noticed that though some tried to cover up abuses, those are nevertheless being revealed in our media? Are those guilty going to be punished in a manner they deserve? Probably not in a way I would wish to see them punished. A reprimand or one year in prison is an outrage and scandal, but neither I or most Americans have any control over that -- only our government does.
Now, how about governments in your part of the world? Are their abuses reported? Are those who commit abuses punished ? I f they aren't, then what happens to people who publicy protest?
It is a sad state of affairs, Zahir, we are both pawns used by the authorities above us. I guess my best response to you is to say that one needs to accept the lesser of 2 evils and I sincerely believe that the U.S. is the lesser evil.
Thank you for taking the time to respond to my first message and for allowing me to answer. God's blessing on you, Zahir.
Then I made this reply.
Reply to Dave
Hello Mr. Dave
I’m really sorry for making so much delay in making this reply. I was actually busy with my university admission and I was away from home for a long time. I’m really glad that you took the hardship of writing the nice mail to me.
I've had to be off-line a couple of days because of work, but I did want to send an answer to you. I've just finished reading some of the discussion that followed our messages. I wanted to answer you this way rather than on the message board because some of the responses were profane and I don't care to be involved in discussions with such people participating.
Propaganda is a fine art. It takes facts and bends them to fit the needs of whoever is using them. I'll grant that the U.S. and the U.S. media indulge in it. It may surprise you to learn that a lot of Americans don't trust the word of our media or our government. Neither one of them certainly speaks for me.
I'm a Christian and we have a belief in orginal sin which is the idea that no one is without sin. We are all imperfect. I don' thave any illusions about my government or media. My question to you is -- are you as skeptical of the sources from which you get your news? They have their own agendas. They manipulate facts to fit what they want you to know just as our media tries to do with us.
Yes, you are right. There is no point in taking all the information of sites that I suggested at muttawa.blogspot.com as truth. I actually don’t rely on any particular source for information, as I know it very well all the sources are biased. I try to read stories of both sides. Then I try to answer to some questions. When someone gets killed the police at first tries to find out the person who got benefited from the killing. In most of the cases you will find the actual murderer in this process. I imply this theory to get to the truth. And I believe that there is not a single person in this world who would do anything without having any benefit from his act. Nobody does anything for free. And I’ve experienced that newspapers are the worst source of true information. I rather tend to rely on documentary books.
The problem for you and me is how do we know what is true? We are both being manipulated, so we are left with this gulf between us that is filled with lies, half-truths and false impressions... Have you ever read George Orwell's book 1984? If you do, then that book explains better than I can how and why this happens.
I’m glad that you at least know that your government manipulate news. No, I haven’t read the book of George Orwell’s “1984”. I will try to read that book if I find it somewhere. Just a week ago I read a book of Harun Yahya, a Turkish world famous writer “Romanticism: A Weapon of Satan”. After reading this book I understood why our governments manipulate, how we are manipulated and the affects. 900 people of your country committed suicide at a time just listening to their leader in 1978. And in another case 90 university students committed suicide at a time because their teacher suggested them to suicide. It happens actually for blindly loving someone without caring a bit about the authenticity of his claim. To bring romanticism in his countrymen Hitler started the terms as German blood, German flag, German honour, German pride… He also applied many other ways to convince Germans to go for war. He made the Germans believe that serving the country should be their sole aim in life. So when Hitler attacked other countries and committed genocides his countrymen didn’t oppose because they thought opposing would be unpatriotic. To justify killing the Jews Hitler first demonstrated Jews as cheats, characterless who only know how to spread disorder and chaos and make money. Later when his army began to murder Jews, no Germans raised voice against that injustice (Don’t you see any similarity between then Hitler’s act and now Bush’s act?).
Zahir, if you are an honest and honorable person, then you need to seek answers that don't demonize whole nations or groups of people. I seek to learn more about people in your part of the world by reading these blog sites. I have had wonderful, constructive conversations and had many mistaken impressions proven wrong. We (not just you and me) need to learn more about each other and stop being duped by this 'us versus them' mentality that we are being fed in the media & by governments.
Through chatting with many Americans I learnt what a miserable life the Americans lead. A woman named Clarissa Jonson aged 35 told me her miserable life story. Her first husband had affairs with other women so she left him and got married with another man but few months later she found that her this husband is even worse. So he started living with her first husband again. She only has one daughter. She keeps her in a day care centre. She desperately wants to have another child but can’t afford that because she doesn’t have the ability to pay the bill for the babysitter for 2. When I asked why she doesn’t look after her child herself, she said that only relying on her husband’s money the family can’t run. Most of the time her 5-year-old girl stay alone at home.
This is a very common story. You are in a workaholic country. You government make you work like a donkey. You are deprived of family bond. You don’t get a mother’s love let alone father’s. Your aim in life has been fixed by your country only to serve the country by paying huge tax. And with that tax money Mr. Bush liberate other counties. It is not that only the people of Iraq, Afghanistan, and Philistine (or should I say the rest of the world!!) will suffer badly for Mr. Bush’s liberating campaigns. I believe the Americans will suffer the most at the end. With no family bond, no love for each other, no freedom, and no religion: a country full of frustrated robots. What can be worse than this??? (Religion and family bond is the 2 greatest barriers in making people workaholic)
I actually didn’t want to mean that Americans are bad people by criticizing USA. What I wanted to mean that the US government is doing injustice and spreading lawlessness through out the whole world. I just wanted to say like Mr. Cofy Anan “The world would have been a better place to live if there were no USA”.
The Truth lies somewhere in the middle between what you are told and what I am told. We need to seek that and build on that. Otherwise, matters will go from bad to worse.
Has my country always acted honorably? No. Did and does the U.S. make mistakes or bad judgments? Yes. Does all this mean we are involved in an evil conspiracy to monopolize world oil supplies and oppress Muslims? No. As imperfect as our efforts may have been, my countrymen have been trying to do the right thing for people in Kuwait and Iraq. Have you noticed that though some tried to cover up abuses, those are nevertheless being revealed in our media? Are those guilty going to be punished in a manner they deserve? Probably not in a way I would wish to see them punished. A reprimand or one year in prison is an outrage and scandal, but neither I or most Americans have any control over that -- only our government does.
I’m sorry to say that I can’t agree a bit with this part of your letter. Firstly, … ok lets look at the following proven facts about Iraq war…
1. Before going into war against Iraq US government didn’t know that there is not a single WMD in Iraq.
2. US Government didn’t know that Saddam didn’t have any connection with Al Qaida (it has been proofed recently).
3. US Government didn’t know that Iraqis would come up with so much resistance. (It thought they would invite US with flowers.)
4. US Government couldn’t show any connection of Saddam with 9/11.
5. Saddam never had so much military power to pose threat to US security.
Now, you tell me how can you rely on a government like this that has the worst intelligence in the world???
And please never use the word “countrymen” in your statements like you did here, “my countrymen have been trying to do the right thing for people in Kuwait and Iraq.” Rather say “Our government”. I hate your government not your countrymen. And I think I’ve already let you know what kind of help US Government is giving to Kuwait and Iraq in muttawa.blogspot.com. So I won’t repeat that here.
And about the prisoner abuse by the great liberators…. Hmm.. I really expected something better from you as I know that you spend a lot of time on the net. I don’t know why you couldn’t get the actual news. POW abuse is not uncommon in US soldiers. Like Rumsfeld said when he was being interrogated about the POW abuse (quite like this), “listening the facts of POW abuse is one thing but I know that seeing them on the TV is lot different.” Actually we have been hearing the news of POW abuse by the US soldiers for years but this is the first time we are seeing the pictures. Don’t tell me that you don’t know how US government is treating the detainees at Guantenamo. I have seen pictures of even more brutal than what happened at Abu Ghraib. Maybe you don’t even know that US soldiers killed thousands of POWs in Afghanistan after severely torturing them. You can get the stories with pictures at www.whatreallyhappened.com. I will give you the URL later when I get time. It took 1 year for you to get the pictures of Abu Ghraib. I wonder how they leaked. US Government succeeded to deceive for years. It’s not unlikely that one or two out of thousands will leak (I’m really a stupid sometimes. I don’t even get simple things).
And about punishing those guilty… I don’t think it is necessary to punish them by sending them to prison. One reason is this they were ordered by the upper string. They just followed the orders (if their claims are taken to as the truth). Another reason is that they are already getting punishment. Some of the US army men have become mentally sick. After returning from Iraq an army man killed his wife (I’m insane in this case because she was totally innocent. She didn’t deserve such treatment. Those pictures really destroyed my sense of civility). There are other reports of committing suicide, abusing family members. They don’t find peace at home either. If you want someone to have punishment for this it should be Mr. Rumsfeld. Because he knew that such abuses were taking place in Iraq many months before those picture leaked out but he didn’t take any action.
And don’t tell me that you can’t do anything against your government’s acts. It is not true. You can at least hate your government’s injustice. That is enough if you don’t have the courage to let others know your opinion.
Now, how about governments in your part of the world? Are their abuses reported? Are those who commit abuses punished ? I f they aren't, then what happens to people who publicy protest?
I will let you know in details about my country in my next mail. But before that let me know you have received this mail.
It is a sad state of affairs, Zahir, we are both pawns used by the authorities above us. I guess my best response to you is to say that one needs to accept the lesser of 2 evils and I sincerely believe that the U.S. is the lesser evil.
Romanticism worked in you when you wrote these 3 lines. Don’t you remember that the whole world protested the war against Iraq? Do you think that only US has the ability to understand what is good for Iraq and what is bad?
Yes, agree that Saddam was an evil. But there can be no greater evil than US for Iraq. You will understand it but for a while you think yourself as an Iraqi. Just think that you are an Iraqi and ask yourself the question “Who the greater evil is?”
I’m from Bangladesh, a country that was a part of greater India along with Pakistan. The British ruled India for 200 years. We know what it is like to be colonized. If you just read the history of India you will know what a great, great evil England was. There can be no curse greater than being colonized. For 200 years there had been hundreds of mutinies, millions of people got killed to liberate the country again from the British vampire. But it would have been very easy to save India had our forefathers made a little effort 200 years ago. But they didn’t realize the fatal effects of letting the British colonize India then. Now you just see how badly it affected India.
· One third of the people of India died in 1776 when the British businessmen stored all the grains to make better profit.
· Most of the treasures of India were taken to UK. Just visit the British Museum. They didn’t leave anything from household materials to diamonds and jewelleries.
· In USA more than 30% of doctors and engineers are from India. You will find that students of Indian subcontinent are the best in the world. If all the workers of Indian subcontinent are taken out of US, it will not remain a superpower (tell me if I’m wrong). But having so many talented workers all over the world the people of this region have not progressed much. Our workers are building other countries but can’t do the same to their own country. And it is the effect of being colonized for 200 years.
· India divided into 3 parts after getting liberated from the British Vampire step by step through many deadly wars one deadlier then the other. Before leaving India, UK didn’t clarify whether Kashmir is a part of India or of Pakistan. And now for the last 57 years India and Pakistan are fighting for Kashmir and so far thousands of people got killed just for this Kashmir dispute.
· Still the stories of British solders’ cruelty towards our poor villagers haunt us.
There is no difference between 250 years ago UK and present US. UK also came to India to serve India and now US went to Iraq to liberate it. UK fooled us but I’m glad that Iraq hasn’t stepped on the deadly trap of US.
Saddam is just a man. There was hope in the Iraqis that after his death, Saddam’s days will be over. Or a strong mutiny can make their dream come true. But if US come, there is no hope.
Again just think what US soldiers have done at Abu Ghraib. A year hasn’t passed yet and they have started showing their real face. UK was cleverer than US. They showed their actual face after getting the total control of India. But US is stupid, it better get some lessons from its collaborator.
Finally I would like to tell you that, God never lets an oppressor get away with his crime even in this world. I don’t feel pity for the Iraqis. USA is doing a great job there. Petrodollar made those Iraqis lazy and haughty. Now for this war they are getting united, getting industrious. It surely is necessary for them. They will have better family bond, rational bond and of course they will get out of the idea of relying on petrodollar only. I thank Mr. Bush for liberating them of their ignorance about the cruelty of the world.
But I feel pity for you Americans. Just for to provide the money for liberating other counties (Afghanistan, then Iraq, then Syria, then Iran, then Saudi Arabia… hey, why Saudi Arabia so late??? They were the real culprits of that 9/11 attack as CIA claims…oh I must not forget your CIS always make mistakes) you will have to pay taxes after taxes. This is just the beginning. I don’t know what your warmonger Government will make your next generation do, to get the money to liberate other countries.
Don’t say that you can do nothing. As you curse your ancestors for making your country a workaholic nation, your next generation will curse you for not doing anything. Liberate yourself from this workaholic state. Get fun having a great family life. I know without my family I’m nothing. I can’t even imagine what a regretful life it is not to have good family bond. Look at your countrymen they are frustrated paying all those taxes. Don’t let your children blame you for not giving them a father’s love, a beautiful family.
Thank you for taking the time to respond to my first message and for allowing me to answer. God's blessing on you, Zahir.
Thank you too for writing your lovely mail. I would be very obliged if you let me know your daily routine and about you and your family.
Thank you once again
Zahir.
I’ve found that the westerners take a lot of hardship to convey their massage to us. And they try their best to discuss about facts to come to the truth. But unfortunately there aren’t many in us to tell them our story. So we can’t blame them for their ignorance.
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comments.
Do anyone in this world will ever believe that a country would spend billions of dollars and have thousands of it's soldier killed to liberate another country that has no similiarity with religion, culture and anything???
No matter how many westerners say that US and UK are liberating Iraq, the truth is they have gone there to steal the oil from Iraq. But for some terrorist Iraqies they are not
becoming successful.
zahir 05.24.04 - 9:43 am #
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"the truth is they have gone there to steal the oil from Iraq"
zahir. Are you SURE that that is the truth? Positive? Without a doubt? Care to guess how many Iraqis are recieving paychecks from Oil revenues? Thinking, zahir, will put your people on the moon. It will invent things, like computers. It will cure diseases. You should concentrate on thinking more. It is much more helpful for all of us.
Scott from Oregon Email 05.24.04 - 10:41 am #
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Zahir, if we went to Iraq to steal their oil we've done a pretty bad job of getting it. Have you checked prices lately? You know, that supply and demand thing?
Alhamedi, your entry today makes me want to laugh and cry at the same time. Laugh becuase your writing is so excellent, and cry because of what you say. Your work is precious. Keep up the good work.
Tom the Redhunter Email Homepage 05.24.04 - 5:10 pm #
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Zahir,
Your views on Americans plotting to steal oil just won't fly. It wasn't the U.S. that invaded Kuwait in the early 90's to seize their oil. The U.S. intervened to prevent that. It was not the U.S. that made a mockery of the oil-for-food program in Iraq. Is it just a coincidence that the current gas price issue is upon on just in time to influence the American presidential election? Who's trying to manipulate who? If some people want to indulge in conspiracy theories over oil supplies, then add this one to the list.
Dave Anthony Email 05.25.04 - 7:58 am #
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Ummm... Zahir....
"Do anyone in this world will ever believe that a country would spend billions of dollars... ...to steal the oil from Iraq"
You don't see the logic problem there, do you?
Ben Email 05.26.04 - 3:47 pm #
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Mr. Dave
You are saying that US actually helped Kuwait in the gulf war right?
But you don't know who created that war. The gulf war would have never happened if USA didn't work behind it from the beginning.
To have the complete domination in the Arab, USA plotted that war like many other wars in the past. Now let me tell you how it worked.
Zahir Email 05.27.04 - 10:51 am #
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After destroying a rapidly developing country, Iran by helping Iraq in every posible way USA actaully made sure that no Arab nation advances. Then Before the gulf war US gave Saddam the green signal to go for the war with kuwait by telling Saddam that US will never interfere with the internal matters of the Arab nations and on the other hand it promised Kuwait total support against Iraq. Now you said, "It wasn't the U.S. that invaded Kuwait in the early 90's to seize their oil". well, you are right in this case cause by saving Kuwait from Iraq US managed to have complete controle over the Kuwaiti oil feilds. And at the same time they got access to enter other Arab nations.
zahir 05.27.04 - 10:52 am #
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Even Saudies can't enter a big area of Dammam which US manage to occupy through this process.
actually, saddam was helping US all through his life by his foolish acts. but that fool never realized that.
Listen to the cassette "From the Shadow" Part 1 of Abdul Karim which u will get anywhere in USA and UK.
And don't say that US have invaded Iraq to help the Iraqies to live better, ppl will laugh at you. Nobody does anything without profit. And US is doing it for OIL only.
Visit www.whatreallyhappened.com
you will be able to know some truth there.
zahir 05.27.04 - 10:59 am #
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I would like all of you to read the following article. Please read it.
Please......
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ARTICLE5/
zahir 05.27.04 - 11:34 am #
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Posted by Zahir:
"Nobody does anything without profit. And US is doing it for OIL only. "
Then why am I paying $2.10 dollars per gallon to fill up my Mazda you fucking panzy?!!
What an idiot. Conspiracy theories like this have a place - UP YOUR ASS Zahir.
And you know what? Even IF the US was doing it for the oil, then God bless them, because them coming after oil is a hundred times better than Saddam coming after your mom.
Idiota.
Magnus Maximus Email 05.27.04 - 2:26 pm #
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"Is terrorism inside the United States really from outside, or is it a stage managed production, designed to cause Americans to believe they have no choice but to surrender the Republic and accept the totalitarian rule of a new emperor, or a new Fuhrer? "
ZAHIR-- You forgot the THINKING part again!!! That was the second dumbest thing I have ever read. Think, man, think!!
Scott from Oregon Email 05.27.04 - 3:35 pm #
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Well...It's nice to know I am not the only one loosing sleep, either!
Zahir...
1) Helped Saddam against Iran because fanatical Islamist took over our embassy in 79 and held our people hostage for 444 days.
...We have just as long memories as the Islamists do.
2) Did not go to all out war with Iran because ARab world was worried it would cause turmoil in area and would spill over to them
Kat-Missouri/USA Email 05.27.04 - 10:41 pm #
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3) Arab world put serious pressure on the US not to do anything. Please note the oil shortages in 1979. (US history; I'm sure you can look that up)
4) Arab world does not care if they kill each other. Thought Saddam was a good way to keep Islamist from spilling over into their countries from Iran. They were not interested in the holy revolution.
5) Most weapons Saddam used were supplied by Russia and France (please see pictures of tanks and other weapons from the fall of Baghdad).
Kat-Missouri/USA Email 05.27.04 - 10:46 pm #
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6) through what countries do you think the weapons were delivered? Iraq does not share a border with US (please see a map of the world)
7) Comment on Bush 1 stating we would not interfere in with "internal matters of Arab nations" did not mean if one country invaded another. Simply meant that we were not interested, at that time, in removing him from his teetering totalitarianthrone. People want to change that to "green light to invade Kuwait" is their problem.
Kat-Missouri/USA Email 05.27.04 - 10:52 pm #
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-Are you implying that Bush 1 was brilliant and could fool anyone into doing what he wanted or are you implying that the Arab world in general are idiots (which I don't buy) and coulnd't see he was tricking them into letting him in?
9) Kuwait, Saudi, Oman, etc ASKED for our help because they knew when Saddam took over Kuwait they would be next and they could not rely on people like you to protect their countries.
10) Even though the leaders of ARab countries don't have much to say about it now, I am pretty sure they knew that SAddam was crazy and were severely afraid for themselves. Better to ask the US to come in help, then hope that their "muslim brothers" would come to their aid.
Kat-Missouri/USA Email 05.27.04 - 10:58 pm #
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11) Saudis, et al did not take Bin Laden's assistance of mujahideen because they knew when it was over they would have an armed militia inside their borders fomenting revolution. (For progressive, developing countries developed by bin Laden and taliban, please see Afghanistan) Of course, you would probably have liked that. I get the impression that Almehdi would have disagreed.
12) America did not invade Iraq to make Iraqis free. (darn it, I knew somebody would figure this out). US invaded Iraq because Iraq was conspiring with terrorist Al-qaida (see 9/11: why we don't like Al-qaida).
Kat-Missouri/USA Email 05.27.04 - 11:06 pm #
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13) We know this because Iraqi intelligence met with Al-qaida before 9/11 and let in al-zarqawi for "medical treatment". (somehow I don't think this was altruistic intent either)
14) Al-qaida thought Saddam would make a good partner for short term (the enemy of my enemy is my friend) But, probably would have turned on him the second they got what they wanted. Saddam is lucky we captured him. Al-qaida would have summarily chopped off his head.
Kat-Missouri/USA Email 05.27.04 - 11:13 pm #
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15) Again, Saudi, Kuwait, Oman, etc agreed to let US in because they knew Saddam + Al Qaida = big trouble for future of Arab world. Almehdi might have problems now, but at least the Talibani are not looking for him with a grenade.
16) Iraq invaded and Saddam overthrown because he was a threat to our security and, frankly, yours. If Saddam and Al-Qaida had their way, you would not be on this blog to speak so ill of what you know nothing about.
17) Free Iraqi people and oil flowing freely that is not part of OPEC is a side benefit.
1 Iraqi oil revenues are in the hands of the Iraqi IGC. 10 Billion US dollars. Please explain how oil is being "stolen" from Iraq.
Kat-Missouri/USA Email 05.27.04 - 11:27 pm #
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19) US gave Iraq 15 billion US dollars in non repayable (free) loans. NO Iraqi has to pay it back. Please explain how we are stealing from Iraqi people?
20) Iraqi oil revenues in the hands of Al-qaida/Taliban government would be the end of the Arab world. Thousands of non-sunni/wahabi practicing muslims would be dead even now. Almehdi would be telling us even worse stories if he could even actually get on the internet or was not one of the dead "heretics".
Zahir would probably enjoy rule by Taliban. Probably get a high up position like minister of propaganda...oops...information.
Please explain how you think you know US invaded Iraq for oil? Did the TV tell you?
Kat-Missouri/USA Email 05.27.04 - 11:29 pm #
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Dear friends
I can c that many of u have severely criticised my comments. I actually knew that u ppl will react like this because the truth is so much against your perception that it is very difficult for you to digest them. Someone even said that I'd probably like the rule of Taliban. I think he didn't mean it. But I actually would like the ruleship of Taliban. Like I said before you ppl don't know the truth. u think that whatever u learn from CNN and BBC is true. But USA and UK use CNN and BBA to promote their propaganda. let me make it clear pls.
Zahir Email 05.28.04 - 6:39 am #
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read this interview with Yvonne Ridley, a British jounalist who was captured by the Taliban and later released. GO to
http://thedailystar.net/magazine/2004/04/04/interview.htm
Dear frieds don't stick to your beliefs. Let some light come in to your heads.
Zahir 05.28.04 - 6:45 am #
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Forget what you have leart from CNN, BBC ect. Try to know how and why Taliban was formed. And try to know the character of Molla Mohammad Omar. And other leaders of Taliban. I hope you ppl will also begin to love Taliban like Ridley and me. Don't hate Taliban for one or two souldiers. And keep it in your mind that the truth is not what we get from the newspapers.
READ the articles of www.whatreallyhappened.com more carefully.
I will give more links to u ppl for better understanding "the truth".
Zahir Email 05.28.04 - 6:51 am #
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Kat: I'd bet money you didn't know you would be THAT right about Zahir. I think he already HAS that Minister of Propaganda position.
insomni Email 05.28.04 - 7:55 am #
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Mr. Magnus Maximus
you used some slangs that i'm not used to hear. But i didn't mind it at all cause i know its your nature to use abusive words without providing a little evidence.
I agree that Saddam was not good as a leader of Iraq but surely he was better than US. go to the following site if u what to know what kind of liberation US is giving to the Iraqis. And Mr. Magnus will also know who the actual rapist is.
http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0421/mondo2.php
Zahir Email 05.28.04 - 8:00 am #
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Just as corruption can be found at all levels of government in the USA and elsewhere, so also there are corrupt individuals in government in SA. Problems caused by individuals within each system must be distinguished from the problems of each system, however.
Just as the Western legal system, including trial by jury, has evolved with the influence of diverse social influences over hundreds of years, so also law in the Muslim world has evolved, under impact by various influences, over a similar period of time.
Continued...
SF Email Homepage 05.28.04 - 9:37 am #
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Some people idealize "freedom" and individual liberty, while others believe that social order and stability are a higher priority in their lives.
The jury system is not without flaws. With its emphasis on personal freedom and 'evidence', the Western system sometimes allows criminals to go free. Innocent people have been incarcerated after jury trials, and executed. A judge's discretion is sometimes the better protection for the innocent.
Dealing with specific details makes for a clearer discussion than throwing out broad generalizations, but adapting some aspects of the SA (or Islamic) legal system to practices that better serve society rather than
condemning it in totality might be a better choice
SF Email Homepage 05.28.04 - 9:38 am #
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SF: You are smoking some bad weed if you can put the US and Saudi legal systems side-by-side and say that while both have their flaws, one is not necessarily better than the other. Do you work for arabnews.com, because this sounds like the drivel they put out.
Zahir: CNN offers pro-war propaganda? Oh, that's good. I'll have to save that comment for a laugh the next time I'm upset about the US media's relentless assault on the US military.
insomni Email 05.28.04 - 11:46 am #
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SF: You are smoking some bad weed if you can put the US and Saudi legal systems side-by-side and say that while both have their flaws, one is not necessarily better than the other. Do you work for arabnews.com, because this sounds like the drivel they put out.
Zahir: CNN offers pro-war propaganda? Oh, that's good. I'll have to save that comment for a laugh the next time I'm upset about the US media's relentless assault on the US military.
insomni Email 05.28.04 - 11:49 am #
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SF: You are smoking some bad weed if you can put the US and Saudi legal systems side-by-side and say that while both have their flaws, one is not necessarily better than the other. Do you work for arabnews.com, because this sounds like the drivel they put out.
Zahir: CNN offers pro-war propaganda? Oh, that's good. I'll have to save that comment for a laugh the next time I'm upset about the US media's relentless assault on the US military.
insomni Email 05.28.04 - 11:56 am #
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SF: You are smoking some bad weed if you can put the US and Saudi legal systems side-by-side and say that while both have their flaws, one is not necessarily better than the other. Do you work for arabnews.com, because this sounds like the drivel they put out.
Zahir: CNN offers pro-war propaganda? Oh, that's good. I'll have to save that comment for a laugh the next time I'm upset about the US media's relentless assault on the US military.
insomni Email 05.28.04 - 12:07 pm #
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SF: You are smoking some bad weed if you can put the US and Saudi legal systems side-by-side and say that while both have their flaws, one is not necessarily better than the other. Do you work for arabnews.com, because this sounds like the drivel they put out.
Zahir: CNN offers pro-war propaganda? Oh, that's good. I'll have to save that comment for a laugh the next time I'm upset about the US media's relentless assault on the US military.
insomni Email 05.28.04 - 12:42 pm #
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http://redhunter.blogspot.com/
Mary Martini Email 05.28.04 - 12:54 pm #
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SF: You are smoking some bad weed if you can put the US and Saudi legal systems side-by-side and say that while both have their flaws, one is not necessarily better than the other. Do you work for arabnews.com, because this sounds like the drivel they put out.
Zahir: CNN offers pro-war propaganda? Oh, that's good. I'll have to save that comment for a laugh the next time I'm upset about the US media's relentless assault on the US military.
insomni Email 05.28.04 - 12:57 pm #
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Queer Sheik: The Strange Emergence of Gay and Lesbian Culture in Saudi Arabia (The New Republic)
http://www.johnrbradley.com/recart_02.html?pt=F4bD483qZPViqE1CyQTDkh==
John R Bradley Homepage 05.28.04 - 1:14 pm #
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SF: You are smoking some bad weed if you can put the US and Saudi legal systems side-by-side and say that while both have their flaws, one is not necessarily better than the other. Do you work for arabnews.com, because this sounds like the drivel they put out.
Zahir: CNN offers pro-war propaganda? Oh, that's good. I'll have to save that comment for a laugh the next time I'm upset about the US media's relentless assault on the US military.
insomni Email 05.28.04 - 1:41 pm #
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Oh, CRAP! My apologies to all... I was hitting refresh on this window to see when new comments came in. Mine was always on the bottom, so I figured that nobody else had commented. It wasn't until just now that I realized that every refresh was resubmitting my last comment! Feeling foolish. Sorry about that. It's no excuse, but this is the first time I've seen a blog commenting system that works like that.
insomni Email 05.28.04 - 1:44 pm #
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I am an Orthodox Jew (I'm sure Zahir has already formed lots of opinions about me). There is another reason why Bush deposed Saddam. It was a matter of family honor. Bush Sr. advised the Shiites to rebel and then, on the advice of the State Department, didn't help out. Many died due to our neglegence. Bush Jr., and the USA, needed to repair that breach of trust.
Joseph from Oregon Email 05.28.04 - 2:40 pm #
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Zahir, like so many conspiracy theorists, thinks the US (and the Jews for that matter) are what the Arab world has always dreamed of being - united in belief, purpose and action. Fact is, sorry to break it to you Zahir, that we have disagreements and arguments and fundamental fault lines like anybody else. We (the West) succeed where you fail because we have developed a society that builds on disagreement and conflict rather than a society like that in the Arab world which will not allow disagreement or criticism and thus fails to develop at all. Individual liberty, SF and Zahir, leads to constructive conflict instead of destructive repression.
Joseph, Portland OR Email 05.28.04 - 2:46 pm #
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Zahir: "Forget what you have leart from CNN, BBC ect."
This one had me rolling on the floor laughing! I haven't paid attention to either CNN OR BBC since the Gulf War of 1990-1991!!!!!!! ROFL! Those are the channels those who OPPOSE the Iraq War watch! LOL!!!!
Further, that article in the Village Voice says, "There is one photo of an American soldier having sex with an Iraqi woman."
They're a little behind the times. Word has gotten out that the woman in the picture is Lynddie England, she of the leash, not an Iraqi. There are no "rape" photos that are real.
Theresa, Florida 05.31.04 - 12:49 am #
Few days later I received a letter from Mr. Dave.
Letter from Dave
I've had to be off-line a couple of days because of work, but I did want to send an answer to you. I've just finished reading some of the discussion that followed our messages. I wanted to answer you this way rather than on the message board because some of the responses were profane and I don't care to be involved in discussions with such people participating.
Propaganda is a fine art. It takes facts and bends them to fit the needs of whoever is using them. I'll grant that the U.S. and the U.S. media indulge in it. It may surprise you to learn that a lot of Americans don't trust the word of our media or our government. Neither one of them certainly speaks for me.
I'm a Christian and we have a belief in orginal sin which is the idea that no one is without sin. We are all imperfect. I don' thave any illusions about my government or media. My question to you is -- are you as skeptical of the sources from which you get your news? They have their own agendas. They manipulate facts to fit what they want you to know just as our media tries to do with us.
The problem for you and me is how do we know what is true? We are both being manipulated, so we are left with this gulf between us that is filled with lies, half-truths and false impressions... Have you ever read George Orwell's book 1984? If you do, then that book explains better than I can how and why this happens.
Zahir, if you are an honest and honorable person, then you need to seek answers that don't demonize whole nations or groups of people. I seek to learn more about people in your part of the world by reading these blog sites. I have had wonderful, constructive conversations and had many mistaken impressions proven wrong. We (not just you and me) need to learn more about each other and stop being duped by this 'us versus them' mentality that we are being fed in the media & by governments.
The Truth lies somewhere in the middle between what you are told and what I am told. We need to seek that and build on that. Otherwise, matters will go from bad to worse.
Has my country always acted honorably? No. Did and does the U.S. make mistakes or bad judgments? Yes. Does all this mean we are involved in an evil conspiracy to monopolize world oil supplies and oppress Muslims? No. As imperfect as our efforts may have been, my countrymen have been trying to do the right thing for people in Kuwait and Iraq. Have you noticed that though some tried to cover up abuses, those are nevertheless being revealed in our media? Are those guilty going to be punished in a manner they deserve? Probably not in a way I would wish to see them punished. A reprimand or one year in prison is an outrage and scandal, but neither I or most Americans have any control over that -- only our government does.
Now, how about governments in your part of the world? Are their abuses reported? Are those who commit abuses punished ? I f they aren't, then what happens to people who publicy protest?
It is a sad state of affairs, Zahir, we are both pawns used by the authorities above us. I guess my best response to you is to say that one needs to accept the lesser of 2 evils and I sincerely believe that the U.S. is the lesser evil.
Thank you for taking the time to respond to my first message and for allowing me to answer. God's blessing on you, Zahir.
Then I made this reply.
Reply to Dave
Hello Mr. Dave
I’m really sorry for making so much delay in making this reply. I was actually busy with my university admission and I was away from home for a long time. I’m really glad that you took the hardship of writing the nice mail to me.
I've had to be off-line a couple of days because of work, but I did want to send an answer to you. I've just finished reading some of the discussion that followed our messages. I wanted to answer you this way rather than on the message board because some of the responses were profane and I don't care to be involved in discussions with such people participating.
Propaganda is a fine art. It takes facts and bends them to fit the needs of whoever is using them. I'll grant that the U.S. and the U.S. media indulge in it. It may surprise you to learn that a lot of Americans don't trust the word of our media or our government. Neither one of them certainly speaks for me.
I'm a Christian and we have a belief in orginal sin which is the idea that no one is without sin. We are all imperfect. I don' thave any illusions about my government or media. My question to you is -- are you as skeptical of the sources from which you get your news? They have their own agendas. They manipulate facts to fit what they want you to know just as our media tries to do with us.
Yes, you are right. There is no point in taking all the information of sites that I suggested at muttawa.blogspot.com as truth. I actually don’t rely on any particular source for information, as I know it very well all the sources are biased. I try to read stories of both sides. Then I try to answer to some questions. When someone gets killed the police at first tries to find out the person who got benefited from the killing. In most of the cases you will find the actual murderer in this process. I imply this theory to get to the truth. And I believe that there is not a single person in this world who would do anything without having any benefit from his act. Nobody does anything for free. And I’ve experienced that newspapers are the worst source of true information. I rather tend to rely on documentary books.
The problem for you and me is how do we know what is true? We are both being manipulated, so we are left with this gulf between us that is filled with lies, half-truths and false impressions... Have you ever read George Orwell's book 1984? If you do, then that book explains better than I can how and why this happens.
I’m glad that you at least know that your government manipulate news. No, I haven’t read the book of George Orwell’s “1984”. I will try to read that book if I find it somewhere. Just a week ago I read a book of Harun Yahya, a Turkish world famous writer “Romanticism: A Weapon of Satan”. After reading this book I understood why our governments manipulate, how we are manipulated and the affects. 900 people of your country committed suicide at a time just listening to their leader in 1978. And in another case 90 university students committed suicide at a time because their teacher suggested them to suicide. It happens actually for blindly loving someone without caring a bit about the authenticity of his claim. To bring romanticism in his countrymen Hitler started the terms as German blood, German flag, German honour, German pride… He also applied many other ways to convince Germans to go for war. He made the Germans believe that serving the country should be their sole aim in life. So when Hitler attacked other countries and committed genocides his countrymen didn’t oppose because they thought opposing would be unpatriotic. To justify killing the Jews Hitler first demonstrated Jews as cheats, characterless who only know how to spread disorder and chaos and make money. Later when his army began to murder Jews, no Germans raised voice against that injustice (Don’t you see any similarity between then Hitler’s act and now Bush’s act?).
Zahir, if you are an honest and honorable person, then you need to seek answers that don't demonize whole nations or groups of people. I seek to learn more about people in your part of the world by reading these blog sites. I have had wonderful, constructive conversations and had many mistaken impressions proven wrong. We (not just you and me) need to learn more about each other and stop being duped by this 'us versus them' mentality that we are being fed in the media & by governments.
Through chatting with many Americans I learnt what a miserable life the Americans lead. A woman named Clarissa Jonson aged 35 told me her miserable life story. Her first husband had affairs with other women so she left him and got married with another man but few months later she found that her this husband is even worse. So he started living with her first husband again. She only has one daughter. She keeps her in a day care centre. She desperately wants to have another child but can’t afford that because she doesn’t have the ability to pay the bill for the babysitter for 2. When I asked why she doesn’t look after her child herself, she said that only relying on her husband’s money the family can’t run. Most of the time her 5-year-old girl stay alone at home.
This is a very common story. You are in a workaholic country. You government make you work like a donkey. You are deprived of family bond. You don’t get a mother’s love let alone father’s. Your aim in life has been fixed by your country only to serve the country by paying huge tax. And with that tax money Mr. Bush liberate other counties. It is not that only the people of Iraq, Afghanistan, and Philistine (or should I say the rest of the world!!) will suffer badly for Mr. Bush’s liberating campaigns. I believe the Americans will suffer the most at the end. With no family bond, no love for each other, no freedom, and no religion: a country full of frustrated robots. What can be worse than this??? (Religion and family bond is the 2 greatest barriers in making people workaholic)
I actually didn’t want to mean that Americans are bad people by criticizing USA. What I wanted to mean that the US government is doing injustice and spreading lawlessness through out the whole world. I just wanted to say like Mr. Cofy Anan “The world would have been a better place to live if there were no USA”.
The Truth lies somewhere in the middle between what you are told and what I am told. We need to seek that and build on that. Otherwise, matters will go from bad to worse.
Has my country always acted honorably? No. Did and does the U.S. make mistakes or bad judgments? Yes. Does all this mean we are involved in an evil conspiracy to monopolize world oil supplies and oppress Muslims? No. As imperfect as our efforts may have been, my countrymen have been trying to do the right thing for people in Kuwait and Iraq. Have you noticed that though some tried to cover up abuses, those are nevertheless being revealed in our media? Are those guilty going to be punished in a manner they deserve? Probably not in a way I would wish to see them punished. A reprimand or one year in prison is an outrage and scandal, but neither I or most Americans have any control over that -- only our government does.
I’m sorry to say that I can’t agree a bit with this part of your letter. Firstly, … ok lets look at the following proven facts about Iraq war…
1. Before going into war against Iraq US government didn’t know that there is not a single WMD in Iraq.
2. US Government didn’t know that Saddam didn’t have any connection with Al Qaida (it has been proofed recently).
3. US Government didn’t know that Iraqis would come up with so much resistance. (It thought they would invite US with flowers.)
4. US Government couldn’t show any connection of Saddam with 9/11.
5. Saddam never had so much military power to pose threat to US security.
Now, you tell me how can you rely on a government like this that has the worst intelligence in the world???
And please never use the word “countrymen” in your statements like you did here, “my countrymen have been trying to do the right thing for people in Kuwait and Iraq.” Rather say “Our government”. I hate your government not your countrymen. And I think I’ve already let you know what kind of help US Government is giving to Kuwait and Iraq in muttawa.blogspot.com. So I won’t repeat that here.
And about the prisoner abuse by the great liberators…. Hmm.. I really expected something better from you as I know that you spend a lot of time on the net. I don’t know why you couldn’t get the actual news. POW abuse is not uncommon in US soldiers. Like Rumsfeld said when he was being interrogated about the POW abuse (quite like this), “listening the facts of POW abuse is one thing but I know that seeing them on the TV is lot different.” Actually we have been hearing the news of POW abuse by the US soldiers for years but this is the first time we are seeing the pictures. Don’t tell me that you don’t know how US government is treating the detainees at Guantenamo. I have seen pictures of even more brutal than what happened at Abu Ghraib. Maybe you don’t even know that US soldiers killed thousands of POWs in Afghanistan after severely torturing them. You can get the stories with pictures at www.whatreallyhappened.com. I will give you the URL later when I get time. It took 1 year for you to get the pictures of Abu Ghraib. I wonder how they leaked. US Government succeeded to deceive for years. It’s not unlikely that one or two out of thousands will leak (I’m really a stupid sometimes. I don’t even get simple things).
And about punishing those guilty… I don’t think it is necessary to punish them by sending them to prison. One reason is this they were ordered by the upper string. They just followed the orders (if their claims are taken to as the truth). Another reason is that they are already getting punishment. Some of the US army men have become mentally sick. After returning from Iraq an army man killed his wife (I’m insane in this case because she was totally innocent. She didn’t deserve such treatment. Those pictures really destroyed my sense of civility). There are other reports of committing suicide, abusing family members. They don’t find peace at home either. If you want someone to have punishment for this it should be Mr. Rumsfeld. Because he knew that such abuses were taking place in Iraq many months before those picture leaked out but he didn’t take any action.
And don’t tell me that you can’t do anything against your government’s acts. It is not true. You can at least hate your government’s injustice. That is enough if you don’t have the courage to let others know your opinion.
Now, how about governments in your part of the world? Are their abuses reported? Are those who commit abuses punished ? I f they aren't, then what happens to people who publicy protest?
I will let you know in details about my country in my next mail. But before that let me know you have received this mail.
It is a sad state of affairs, Zahir, we are both pawns used by the authorities above us. I guess my best response to you is to say that one needs to accept the lesser of 2 evils and I sincerely believe that the U.S. is the lesser evil.
Romanticism worked in you when you wrote these 3 lines. Don’t you remember that the whole world protested the war against Iraq? Do you think that only US has the ability to understand what is good for Iraq and what is bad?
Yes, agree that Saddam was an evil. But there can be no greater evil than US for Iraq. You will understand it but for a while you think yourself as an Iraqi. Just think that you are an Iraqi and ask yourself the question “Who the greater evil is?”
I’m from Bangladesh, a country that was a part of greater India along with Pakistan. The British ruled India for 200 years. We know what it is like to be colonized. If you just read the history of India you will know what a great, great evil England was. There can be no curse greater than being colonized. For 200 years there had been hundreds of mutinies, millions of people got killed to liberate the country again from the British vampire. But it would have been very easy to save India had our forefathers made a little effort 200 years ago. But they didn’t realize the fatal effects of letting the British colonize India then. Now you just see how badly it affected India.
· One third of the people of India died in 1776 when the British businessmen stored all the grains to make better profit.
· Most of the treasures of India were taken to UK. Just visit the British Museum. They didn’t leave anything from household materials to diamonds and jewelleries.
· In USA more than 30% of doctors and engineers are from India. You will find that students of Indian subcontinent are the best in the world. If all the workers of Indian subcontinent are taken out of US, it will not remain a superpower (tell me if I’m wrong). But having so many talented workers all over the world the people of this region have not progressed much. Our workers are building other countries but can’t do the same to their own country. And it is the effect of being colonized for 200 years.
· India divided into 3 parts after getting liberated from the British Vampire step by step through many deadly wars one deadlier then the other. Before leaving India, UK didn’t clarify whether Kashmir is a part of India or of Pakistan. And now for the last 57 years India and Pakistan are fighting for Kashmir and so far thousands of people got killed just for this Kashmir dispute.
· Still the stories of British solders’ cruelty towards our poor villagers haunt us.
There is no difference between 250 years ago UK and present US. UK also came to India to serve India and now US went to Iraq to liberate it. UK fooled us but I’m glad that Iraq hasn’t stepped on the deadly trap of US.
Saddam is just a man. There was hope in the Iraqis that after his death, Saddam’s days will be over. Or a strong mutiny can make their dream come true. But if US come, there is no hope.
Again just think what US soldiers have done at Abu Ghraib. A year hasn’t passed yet and they have started showing their real face. UK was cleverer than US. They showed their actual face after getting the total control of India. But US is stupid, it better get some lessons from its collaborator.
Finally I would like to tell you that, God never lets an oppressor get away with his crime even in this world. I don’t feel pity for the Iraqis. USA is doing a great job there. Petrodollar made those Iraqis lazy and haughty. Now for this war they are getting united, getting industrious. It surely is necessary for them. They will have better family bond, rational bond and of course they will get out of the idea of relying on petrodollar only. I thank Mr. Bush for liberating them of their ignorance about the cruelty of the world.
But I feel pity for you Americans. Just for to provide the money for liberating other counties (Afghanistan, then Iraq, then Syria, then Iran, then Saudi Arabia… hey, why Saudi Arabia so late??? They were the real culprits of that 9/11 attack as CIA claims…oh I must not forget your CIS always make mistakes) you will have to pay taxes after taxes. This is just the beginning. I don’t know what your warmonger Government will make your next generation do, to get the money to liberate other countries.
Don’t say that you can do nothing. As you curse your ancestors for making your country a workaholic nation, your next generation will curse you for not doing anything. Liberate yourself from this workaholic state. Get fun having a great family life. I know without my family I’m nothing. I can’t even imagine what a regretful life it is not to have good family bond. Look at your countrymen they are frustrated paying all those taxes. Don’t let your children blame you for not giving them a father’s love, a beautiful family.
Thank you for taking the time to respond to my first message and for allowing me to answer. God's blessing on you, Zahir.
Thank you too for writing your lovely mail. I would be very obliged if you let me know your daily routine and about you and your family.
Thank you once again
Zahir.
I’ve found that the westerners take a lot of hardship to convey their massage to us. And they try their best to discuss about facts to come to the truth. But unfortunately there aren’t many in us to tell them our story. So we can’t blame them for their ignorance.
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